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Benjamin: Welcome back to the Martech Podcast. This podcast is sponsored by Searchmetrics. Searchmetrics is a search engine optimization platform that helps businesses who care about their online presence understand how their content is viewed by Google and what they can do to improve their rankings. If you're an enterprise level marketer, the Searchmetrics suite of software and services will help you optimize your existing content, help you understand what topics you need to cover next, and how to ensure that your writers produce effective content. There are billions of Google searches happening every day and helps get your stories to the top. Today we're going to discuss how to generate demand using email prospecting and outreach with Kevin Warner who's the CEO of Leadium. But before we get started, I want to talk to you about this podcast. Last week we posted our first interview with Jordan Koene who is an Axio expert and the general manager of Searchmetrics. Since this is a marketing podcast, I wanted to share some of the data with you from that episode. So far of the people that have listened to this podcast, 93% of you have subscribed. If you are a subscriber, thank you. I want you to feel like a member of a community so my plan is to share some of the strategies that we use to grow our listener base. So far the vast majority of our growth has come from email marketing. To be specific, I've sent a single email campaign that targets 185 marketers in my personal network. As of two weeks after our launch, this podcast has already been downloaded 107 times, which shows that email marketing is a powerful tool for companies that are just getting started. It's also a powerful tool used by some of the largest organizations in the world and so we're very excited to have Kevin Warner with us to tell you how companies both large and small leverage email to meet new customers.
Benjamin: Here's our interview with Kevin.
Benjamin: Kevin, it's great to have you here.
Kevin: Ben, it is always a pleasure.
Benjamin: So to start off, tell me a little bit about what your company does and what's your role at the company.
Kevin: Yeah. Leadium. I am the co-founder and CEO. I have one other co-founder Sergey who sits in our Ukraine headquarters, Kiev of Ukraine, and very simply what Leadium is we partner with businesses, B2B businesses, and we do two things for them. One is we help them generate very targeted, very specific lead lists, and we provide those over to their sales team so that they can generate more outbound opportunities. The second thing is create very strategic data driven outbound sales programs. Really the goal being to help companies very cost effectively scale their sales organization.
Benjamin: I think of your service as lead generation tool, somebody that fills the top of the funnel and sets appointments for sales teams.
Kevin: Bottom line is what we found is enriching what is the end of database is becoming much harder to do. On top of that, we learned that outbound programs that a lot of businesses are running whether you're a start up in Silicon Valley all the way to a Fortune 500 business, we seen that they're very archaic. What they're running is not strategic. They're not a/b testing. They're not using very put together sales automation platforms, and really outbound, as we envision it, is your first touch point with a potential customer. What we look to do is put together very distinct strategies with very specific messaging broken down by persona or decision maker and utilizing the data we're able to generate as a vehicle to kind of drive the outbound programs that we run to create those really the top of the funnel sales opportunities.
Benjamin: Let's talk a little bit about you how you found yourself becoming the CEO of Leadium. What lead you into this role?
Kevin: Well, my career started on Capital Hill, but I very quickly saw the light and got out of there as fast as possible. My career got started on the product side. I was always in product development. First a social media application for college students really to manage their inner mural scheduling. From there I went over to customer success in Silicon Valley. Product support. How to make these products work with the customers we have on board. Throughout several years working with a product, I realized, "Heck. Sales can kind of fix a lot of the problems any organization has because if you don't have sales, and if you don't have revenue, you don't really have a product." Filling a pipeline from top to bottom and having it become very predictable, really allows you to revolutionize an industry or whatever it might be. You might have a lot of deficiencies with your operations, your financing, your product teams. But so long as you can have a stable sales organization, you can really fix all of those problems from the inside out.
Kevin: I was very fortunate through kind of my inner workings to meet some great partners, and we said, "Hey. Let's tackle this issue together. How can we more effectively drive top of the funnel opportunities to sales organizations?"
Benjamin: You transitioned from being in a product driven role into a different organization that did sales development and then on to Leadium. Tell us about the transition from your company where you started learning about this sales model into becoming the CEO of your own company.
Kevin: At the same time I started to have this revelation about the difference between product and sales, I was in a customer success role. I wanted to get more of my feet wet in sales. So the easiest jump from me was join an organization who was already partnered with businesses running their outbound programs, and I joined them as a success manager. What that allowed me to do was focus on the strategy component of outbound email sequences. Kind of seeing how this kind of marketplace was viewing outbound sales and marketing in general, and really start to pinpoint how to make it specific based on company product, company persona targets. I approached it in that success role.
Kevin: Now that lead me on to this opportunity at Leadium where we started a new company because we wanted to take a lot of that strategy component but merge it with a full outsource solution. So a global team of researchers, a global team of sales development reps. It was through that entire experience that I was really able to grasp how to structure a proper sales development program. Then how to structure a really global team that can be utilized by any business in a very effective, cost efficient, and a solutions and a results oriented way.
Benjamin: Tell me about your workforce and how's the organization structured.
Kevin: We're in about seven different countries. Our core being in Kiev Ukraine where we house over 60 of our team members. We have over 110 team members right now in those seven different countries. Kiev, Serbia, and the Philippines and a few others. Really the heart of our product is how we've been able to recruit, hire, and train this global workforce. That's what we spend our back office time really perfecting with our workforce. So it's not like you're just outsourcing this to a random person off the street. You're getting a specialized team that is using the same tools you're currently using in the most effective way possible.
Benjamin: So essentially the model is that you're able to take advantage of the lower wages in places that have good language skills, and you're able to find highly educated people and teach them the tools and sales training that they would get if they worked for a company here in the United States.
Kevin: That's exactly right. I think every time I'm on a phone call with a potential new customer I boil it down to one thing. It's just the economics of geography. You're getting an amazing, talented person who if they were located in San Francisco, you would be paying them San Francisco wages. But it's just the economics of geography. I think in business you see that even within our country, whether you're hiring in San Francisco or you're hiring in Austin, Texas, you're not dropping off on the quality of a person. It's just the economics of where that person is currently.
Benjamin: So you mentioned that there were a couple different segments of your service. There's list building, doing the sales, and then you mentioned enrichment. Tell me a little bit about the process you use for those services.
Kevin: So about 40% of our clients just focus on either list building or list enrichment. I'll break up both of them. List building is very specific. It's targeting an ideal customer profile and then sourcing leads specific to it. Some people might already be engaged with a database doing just this, but a lot of times that's stale data. That's over used data. The bounce rates are higher down the line. We hand generate every lead. We're not a database company, and we love the idea and we feel more companies need to adopt it of sourcing your own data. Because even data that you acquire from databases, what we've found is there's amount of enrichment that needs to go into, which is that second arm of the service you were talking about. That's cleaning up data.
Kevin: Maybe your database stores data in a different way. Maybe Zoom Info is giving you countries or states spelled out instead of abbreviated. Maybe you need to adjust that because in your database, in your CRM, there's a certain way you categorize things or label things. On top of that, there's a certain amount of data decay that we're seeing in more and more organizations, and that's leads or prospects have been in your CRM for a year or two years. Those people might not be in those same positions. They might have gotten a new title. They may have gotten a promotion. They might have gone on to a new company.
Kevin: As you're continuing to do marketing initiatives, one of the most important things is to be contacting the right people with the right message. In order to do that, you need to make sure you're contacting the right people. If you're a marketer and you're using your CRM and your data that's available to you, at some point, every three months, every six months, that becomes stale data. You need to look to enrich it. Our research team is able to plug into the data that you have and very efficiently update it. Make sure that it is accurate contacts. Make sure that Susan Collins who just recently got married is now Susan Montgomery or whatever it might be because when you reach out to Susan, if you reference the wrong name, you've just lost an opportunity.
Kevin: So on the lead's side, we're able to really merge those two on the net new generation and the cleaning up what you currently have.
Benjamin: So basically what you're saying is when you talk about list building, you're finding new people for a company to contact. When you're talking about enrichment, you're making sure that all of the information that you have about that person is up to date and accurate.
Benjamin: Then there's the next step of your process, which is actually doing the outreach and everyone uses email. I think that understanding the best practice is actually something that's under utilized. Tell me a little bit about your process for writing emails that are customized knowing that you're reaching out to a high volume of people.
Kevin: Yeah, when a client comes on with us and they partner with us for outbound sales development programs, really what we highlight more than anything is a strategy. It's amazing to see how many sales development programs and marketers don't have a basic strategy for what they hope to do. What I can tell everybody and what I tell everybody, outbound is very predictable. If you're reaching out to the same prospects with the same messaging and not making any changes, you're going to see the analytics start to kind of even out. You're going to get an open rate and a response rate and an opportunity to even out. You really need a strategy in order to start increasing that. How do you optimize it? How do you adjust it?
Kevin: That's what we put together. That's step one for us. We look for who are you looking to target? Why are you looking to target? Why are you better than your competitor? Why does this person, if you have 10 seconds, why do they want to read to the end of the email? If they read to the end of the email, do you have a clear call to action? So we really break all of this down very early on in order to build a strategy. So my feedback for anybody in the marketing or the outbound or a brand new sales development rep is to go into it thinking why, what do I hope to achieve out of this? Obviously sales opportunities are your end goal, but don't think about the sales opportunity. Think about what you actually want to measure and then what we back in to it is how can we put up a/b tests. I always say a/b test something.
Kevin: A/b test subject lines when you're putting together and email program because you're first challenges is getting somebody to open an email. If they don't open it, there's not a chance in hell they're going to respond to it. So you should be a/b testing subject lines. Once you have an a/b test running for subject lines, a/b test call to actions because maybe just a slight change in how you approach a call to action can greatly increase a response rate. When you really get into best practices of what those emails should look like, I think personalization, everyone would agree, in the marketplace, that's what it's got to be. No more mass send outs.
Benjamin: Give me some examples of what you mean by personalization.
Kevin: Personalization is understanding the persona of the person you're reaching out to. If you're reaching out to a Fortune 500 CEO versus a CFO versus a marketing manager, each one of those people is going to have a very different message. You're going to address them differently. You're going to speak to them differently. You're going to have different openers. So that's personalization number one is just having a basic understanding of who you're communicating to. That should set the tone of the language of your email. Subject line number two and maybe even a call to action. It's probably unthinkable to think that you're going to get 60 minutes on a phone call with a Fortune 500 CEO. Why are you setting yourself up for failure?
Kevin: Number two is understand the industry you're reaching out to. We have a client who right now has multiple industries that they contact. Golf courses, small restaurants, salons and spas, so if we stop there, those are very different industries. If I reach out to a golf course and I reference my clients who are salon and spa owners, it doesn't really make sense. When you're reaching out to Pebble Beach, I shouldn't mention where you get a massage. I should mention other golf courses like Pebble Beach, who are our clients. So even that amount of personalization based on industry, and what you start to map out when you're building your strategy is oh, you're actually in a single email have several different facets of personalization. Whether it's how you address it based on persona, to the type of content you're highlighting, maybe statistics that are industry specific and clients that are industry specific, all the way down to call to actions.
Kevin: Where I think that the sales market and the marketing market go a little crazy with personalization is thinking that things like, "Hey, your best friend went to George Washington University. I went to George Washington University. Let's jump on a call." I think that's where a lot of people are going well outside of the bounds, and it's not needed. So what we focus on is what was very easy to control, and I'll give you three bullet points. If you have these three things, whether cold calling or outbound, you'll most likely get a conversion. That's A, you're targeting the right person. It's actually the decision maker or the person who deals with what you're selling. If you're selling a new CRM system, you're most likely not going to reach out to the CFO.
Kevin: So A, you're reaching out to the right person. That person has a problem that they're currently deal with. If they don't have a problem that you solve, why would they reach back out to you. Then timing, it just has to have good timing. If you don't have those three buckets, it doesn't matter how personalized in an email or what. You have to have those three things, which is why outbound emails have become more and more popular is because you're able to sequence eight, nine, 10 touch points over a two month period because that timing factor is a real thing. If tax season just ended and you reach out to a CFO about tax planning in May, most likely not going to get a conversion. But if you reach back out to them in November, December, they might start to say, "Oh yeah, you're right. I got to start planning for this."
Benjamin: So essentially what you're saying is that email marketing is somewhat like dating where it has to be the right person, right place, and right time.
Kevin: Exactly. That's exactly right, which is why we put so much emphasis on the data we generate, which is why we do not use any databases, why we are not a database company and we generate every lead very specific to the client. That's because it all starts with reaching the right person. Worry about the messaging and the strategy next. Make sure you're contacting the right person.
Benjamin: So I want to talk about pricing for doing outbound email, and what are some of the general benchmarks or ranges that you see in terms of conversions?
Kevin: Questions everybody wants to know on any sales call. For us, we keep our pricing as simple as possible. Our average client signs on to a 90 day program for a $3,000 a month service, which includes both lead generation and outbound sales. If you ask me, I think it's the most affordable solution in the marketplace because A, as an organization, you're generating leads somewhere. Whether you're paying Zoom Info, whether you're paying Discover Org or whether you're paying your $60,000 SDR to sit on SalesForce navigator, they do have a cost associated with the time to generate that lead. We can do it cheaper. So you're still getting those leads. You're getting a full outbound program that, again, we focus on strategy, a/b testing, optimizing, and really measuring at the end of that 90 day cycle.
Kevin: So average customer $3,000 a month, who get 1,000 to 1,200 leads and a full outbound program that has a dedicated sales development rep, a dedicated outbound success manager, and a content team. So very affordable when you look and you want to get your feet wet and kind of an outsourcing, sales development model.
Benjamin: So if I'm backing into a couple numbers, if it's 1,000 leads a month for $3,000, essentially it's $3.00 a lead.
Kevin: So when we do have organizations who say, "So it's about $3.00 a lead." I always say break it up. Break up our outbound program and our lead generation cost. If we're an average of $3,000, the line item of lead generation, just the data end of it, is about $1,300, $1,400. The other $1,600 comes from the outbound program. So on the lead gen side, it's very accustomed to what you're probably paying in a marketplace. Then you're able to really effectively measure the ROI of the outbound side. Because whether or not you use us for outbound, you're still going to need targeted leads for your internal team to utilize. So that's kind of how we approach it with new customers.
Kevin: Just to answer the previous question you had and get a little bit on the data side. Across all of our programs and clients, we've seen a 55% to 65% open rate across the sequence, a 15% to 25% response rate on opens and a 4% to 8% opportunity rate. I always add one disclaimer when people ask me for those numbers, and that's ranging from sass start ups to biochemical companies to DNA sequencing to HR staffing companies for hospitals. Obviously each industry when we get into conversations about that have very different numbers, but if you say merge all of the industries and clients you've worked with and give us the average numbers, those would be them.
Benjamin: I think the other caveat to point out is that you're talking about across a sequence, which is multiple emails sent to the same person. So where a marketer might look at maybe their newsletter and say we have a 15% open rate. If you looked at the open rate of one person across five to eight email blasts, eventually they're going to open email and they're more likely to respond over time. To me that's an important caveat. Out of a sequence, how likely are you to reach someone at its 50% open rate, 15% click through rate, and then the response rate is I think 4% to 5%.
Kevin: Yeah. That's exactly right. So you see that sequence wide. We are a big proponent of outreach that I owe. So they power all of our back end service in the sales development. Every customer we bring on we actually activate a seat and provide them credentials to it. They allow us to really dig into those analytics and you see on the earlier waves of an email campaign higher open rates that start to dwindle as we get to email eight, nine or 10. The numbers I gave you, that's sequence wide. So taking all eight emails.
Benjamin: Give us the rationale behind how long a sequence should be and when to send emails. How long do you wait in between sending emails?
Kevin: We start every new client of ours on a seven email sequence. We think that's the best to start testing the waters and really analyzing the data. When I said earlier, "Hey, we start with a 90 day program," when it comes to outbound, that's to set the proper expectations of an outbound funnel, and actually getting measurements where we can analyze, draw from the insights and optimize. I think every organization has to break down their outbound into kind of that 90 day cycle. Getting started with a strategy, after 30 days seeing what the analytics are telling, maybe make optimizations in the midway point, and then at the end of the 90 days really seeing the effectiveness of that campaign.
Kevin: We are still very much running these internal tests as a three day or a four day separation. We tend to do about three to four days between each email. Each of our emails is a very different structure. So email one might be much more of a sale versus email two, which might be an end reply thread. That might come two to three days after. Our seven email sequence lasts between 24 and 30 days. Our goal is not to spam a prospect. We believe that if we're reaching out to the right person with the right message and a clear call to action, then it's just a matter of timing. So you don't need to over communicate with them. You kind of need to let them breathe a little bit. So the average seven email sequence lasts right up about 30 days.
Benjamin: So you mentioned the s-word, spam. Tell me about what spam actually is. How do you guys think about opt-in email marketing, opt-out, cold call out reach, where's the boundary?
Kevin: It is a good question. It is even coming more to the forefront with Europe with how you store data, how you reach out to people. What we tell our clients is we're not marketers. We're outbound sales. We're in the sales department. We're not in the marketing department. As many companies that try to merge those two together, we like to draw a clear line. I'm a firm believer that if you're doing marketing, you should most likely have an opt-in. In my mind, that's where the can spam laws really disclose, "Hey, you should have an opt-in." When it comes to outbound sales, there's a lot more leniency. We follow all of the requirements that you need with the proper unsubscribe link, having a physical address in your signature, relevant subject lines to your messaging, and then relevant messaging to the decision maker that you're reaching out to. So those are kind of when it comes to outbound sales, the best practices and really the requirements that you need to make sure you have when you're sending out emails.
Benjamin: The teams like if you're going to buy for cate by sales versus marketing, that if you're reaching out to a group of people in a marketing email that needs to have an opt-in as opposed to your sales is meant to be a one to one communication. Am I making that up or is that fair justification of when you're sending a marketing email versus a sales email?
Kevin: Yeah, no. That's good as it gets in the very fine print. I think there's a separation in the conversation we can have too, which is best practices when it comes to can spam law, which is kind of outlines the procedures what you're allowed to do and what you're not allowed to do when you're reaching out to somebody who hasn't opted in. Then there's a separation when it comes to spam best practices. When I say spam best practices, I mean email service providers maybe blocking or flagging entire domains and entire emails and sending them to the junk box, so the spam inbox. I think there's a distinguishing factor between both of them. What we're touching on is can spam and how do you stay compliant for both marketing and sales. Sales, to me, yeah, there's those three buckets that you really need. The subject line that is in line with the message you're sending, a physical address of the email signature, an unsubscribe link that gives clear and distinct unsubscribe link for a prospect to click through, and obviously proper protocol if somebody does unsubscribe.
Kevin: Other than that, the goal of outbound sales and what makes it difference is you are reaching out as an individual with an individual email address to a specific person with a specific goal. The email that you're sending them, and this is where personalization becomes all more important because you can very easily bridge the gap between can spam and no can spam if you send a non-personal email and you just blast send it to thousands of people. That's where we start okay, you should at least do industry specific rich tags. At least do company merge tags, at least make sure you're putting their first name in there, and that's what you really need to focus on if you're looking for that next level of compliance.
Benjamin: When Kevin refers to a merge tag, essentially that's a variable in an email that inserts personalized information. Tell me a little bit about your company. What do you focus on developing now?
Kevin: We are a year in with Leadium. We have been profitable since day one. We've been very fortunate not to have to take funding at any point. We're now looking for what is that next phase. We're undergoing as we speak a brand refresher so that we can adjust our market language and our market approach. Our goal moving forward in 2018 is to really emphasize partnership. There are a lot of lead generation companies. Google lead generation, outbound, outsource sales development. You will get a copious amount of Google page returns with service providers. Some all undercutting the next, all delivering regurgitated leads, whatever it might be. We're really looking in 2018 to set ourselves apart as an industry leader. We don't envision ourselves as an outsource solution. Our new messaging is all about a remote team and that's how we position everything with the companies that we bring on with us, and that's you are getting a dedicated team, a dedicated strategist, somebody to optimize. You're getting real time communication.
Kevin: We just flew a group of 12 of us to Belgium from sales development reps to researchers to myself in order to visit one of our clients. We did an onsite with their team. Why? Because we're practicing what we preach. We are a remote team member. We expect to be held to the same standards, the same type of communication, the same measuring of ROI as you would an internal employee. What we're seeing in response is great take up from our customer base. The reason that they're loving this model is it's all backed on quality. Clearly there are a lot of businesses in the United States alone who need sales who can't afford an AE, let alone an SDR, and need help now. People are willing to put money towards it because like I started this conversations with sales fixes a lot of problems. So that's kind of our 2018 strategy. It's kind of repositioning ourselves as a partner instead as much of an outsource solution.
Benjamin: Talk to me about your customer segmentation. Who are the types of people that you're trying to meet and who has the best effectiveness using outsource sales?
Kevin: Our current client base is everything from Silicon Valley tech start ups, who understand the value and price of an effective sales development program. Probably more so than any other industry because I think that's really what's breeding this new position. All the way to pharmaceutical companies who have very archaic ways that they structure their sales departments. A lot of them are with remote sales people and very territory driven. All the way to Fortune 500 businesses who have ginormous sales development teams but no strategy or structure behind it. So what we found is we haven't walked in to a specific industry we're trying to approach because we've seen the need in each one of them. What we've been able to do is tailor our service to each client specifically.
Kevin: I think what I boil it down, which is a good keyword, scale. Our programs are scalable. If you're looking to get 50 sales opportunities generated this month, we can scale the lead generation. We can scale the SDRs and the outbound in a matter of days. If you're looking to 5x and SDR program, we can do it in a week. If you're looking to scale down, maybe you had a bad quarter. You can't focus as much on sales on a cost wise. You got to look into your conversions and how do you drive more conversions from the opportunities that you're creating. We can scale down overnight. Of course, your pricing adjusts as we go. What we found is that a flexibility to scale is one of the biggest advantages of on outsourced sales development solution. That's because the recruiting, the hiring, and the training process not only is it time consuming, but it's costly for these organizations. If you make one bad hire, it sets you back months. The one thing you don't want to put into jeopardy is your sales pipeline.
Kevin: Additionally, when you do have a great pipeline going, SDRs are still considered one of the lowers in that sales hierarchy. So they have about 20,000 or 30,000 reasons in the U.S. to move into an AE position. So even if you have high performing SDR, they don't want to be an SDR forever. They want to raise in their career. Whereas, that's all we wanted. That's really what I think the biggest market fit is if you can find a great partner who focuses and understands that and has a great strategy and execution on top of it. That's kind of what we're trying to get that message across to the marketplace.
Benjamin: So as you've made the transition from being someone that worked in politics to someone that was on customer success to working in a sales driven organization, what are the lessons that you can pass along to some of the people who are just starting to learn about this channel and that are just developing the career in marketing?
Kevin: Probably the best feedback I can give and probably what's helped me get to where I am, learn from the others in the market. If you're just starting out, if your industry leader, there are other people, there are other companies running very effective programs. We're in a very content driven, digital age where everybody wants to document of what they've learned and what they're highlights are and how they've got something to be more successful than previous. That you're able just to learn without having to try and mess up. Whether it's proper ways to setup sequences, whatever it might be, I constantly learn our competitors, they are constantly looking to learn and make their business better, and I'm able to learn a lot from what they're doing and what they weren't successful at. That's the biggest thing. You have to have your eyes always open knowing that somebody is right there next to you trying to push even harder, and you have to be willing to recognize where your deficiencies are, understand how to learn and get better and correct those deficiencies, and a lot of times that's just looking out in the marketplace. That's it. That's what I would say is the biggest driver.
Kevin: What I have found, if you have somebody who is not actively trying to learn in every day on what they're doing, that's usually the red flag. Those people who aren't trying to learn every day are usually the people that fall behind the other team members.
Benjamin: Last question for you, is there anyone you're looking to try to meet, anything that we can help you plug, or if people are interested in Leadium, how can they get a hold of you?
Kevin: Well, I'm very easy to get ahold of. If you want to go to Leadium.io, we're right there. We will be focusing 2018 very heavily on video. Video testimonials and case studies galore will be on the website. If you do want a little bit of that social proof from us. My contact email@example.com, if you wanted to email me personally. If you just want to meet with more and more businesses how have sales teams, what I love doing, what my partner loves doing, what our team loves doing, even if you're our customer or not, let's jump on a call. We love to learn how sales organizations are setup. I've come to see that no matter how you think every kind of company should have a similar sales department, they are all so very different. So we just love to see and learn what's on the marketplace, teach that best practices. So customers or not, those are the conversations we look to have.
Benjamin: Well, Kevin, thank you so much. I feel like people that are interested in email marketing and learning about outbound hopefully got what they needed from this podcast and now they know how to reach out to you. So thank you very much for your time.
Kevin: Thank you, Ben. It's always a pleasure.
Benjamin: Okay. That wraps up this episode of the Martech Podcast. A special thanks to Kevin Warner from Leadium, and also the Searchmetrics team for sponsoring this podcast.
Benjamin: If you're interested in learning more about Leadium, you can visit them at Leadium.io, and if you'd like to hear more about Searchmetrics to understand how they can help you with organic growth, you can reach them at SearchMetrics.com.
Benjamin: If you enjoy this podcast, we'd love for you to subscribe to get access to a weekly stream of marketing and technology goodness. Just hit the subscribe button in your podcast feed, and of course, we'd also love for you to leave us a review in the iTunes store or wherever you get your podcast. If you have questions or would like to be on the Martech Podcast, you can send us an email at Podcast@benjshap.com or send us a tweet @benjshap.
Benjamin: Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week, and until then, my advice is to focus on keeping your customers happy.