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Benjamin: Welcome back to the MarTech Podcast.
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Today, we're going to discuss a topic that I've been spending a great deal of my time learning about this year: podcast advertising. As consumers shift their listening behaviors from terrestrial radio to streaming digital content, podcast advertising has become one of the fastest growing industries in the MarTech space. We are very fortunate to have Kris Smith, who is a podcast industry vet, and the founder of a podcast advertising platform named Knit Audio. We used the Knit Audio platform to promote this podcast by dynamically inserting ads on shows like CNN's Quest Means Business and Anderson Cooper 360, which has helped us reach thousands of podcast listeners on a bootstrapped budget. Kris is very knowledgeable about the space, and I think you're going to learn a ton from this conversation. Here's the interview. Kris, it's great to have you here.
Kris: Thanks for having me, Ben. I'm looking forward to this.
Benjamin: It's exciting to be talking on a podcast with somebody who is a podcasting expert, and I'm personally excited to learn a little bit more about marketing on this channel.
Kris: Man, let me know when they get here.
Benjamin: Absolutely. Let's start off by talking about what your company does.
Kris: Sure. We do self-service advertising and hosting for podcasts but mostly on the enterprise side by welcoming a new type of buyer to podcasting that hasn't had access previously.
Benjamin: So talk to me a little it about who that new type of buyer is.
Kris: Out of the gate, what we've tried to do is make it open and available for anyone. And I know that sounds like, "Well, Jeez. There's a lot of platforms where anyone can go buy ads. Which is true. Facebook, YouTube, Google. That didn't exist in podcasting before we came along. What we wanted to do was set something up where major publishers, who may have a lot of inventory to fill, can now open up to buyers in a way where there are no minimum budgets. So somebody's got a couple hundred bucks, $1,000 or even $50. They can now find high-quality podcasts that they can advertise in. From big brand names that are household names. That allows them to know that they're getting each as a marketing channel. It allows their brand to be next to this other brand. So our goal is to lower friction and welcome in people who are doing their own advertising and marketing.
Benjamin: So can you give me some examples of who are the type of broadcasters that are on your platform? And I know that you might not be able to talk in specifics, but what are the types of advertisers that you have?
Kris: Sure. On the side, when it comes to the content side, we have a lot of news. We work with CNN through Turner, we have sports, we have NBA and Bleacher Report. And then we've got other shows that are talent, that people know or may have seen on TV. So we've kind of got some of the celebrity angle covered. And then we do a little bit of TV to podcast in other realms.
Benjamin: One of the things that's an itch that I want to scratch is talk bit about my experience with your platform. I started by creating a podcast called A Long Road Home, which tells the story of Uber and Lyft drivers that I've bumped into along the way. And I was interested in using that as a vehicle to test podcast advertising. That was a way for me to spend $100, $200 to promote a podcast that I had created. That's one of the reasons why, of course, I'm so excited about what you've been working on, as you mentioned, that what you're doing is sort of what Facebook had done to the display advertising model. You're doing that with audio ads.
Kris: Thanks. Well, and we're glad to have you, too. I mean, we have a system, at scale, that will allow us to put ads in content in realtime, based on criteria, geolocation, somewhat for the shows on HHI, but DMA's and that kind of stuff, and keyword targeting. So we're doing some semantic analysis of shows, which is fun, but at the same time, what we wanted to be able to do was give access to folks like yourself and then other people. And to be honest, once we launched this system, it took a while. I mean, we still work with big agencies and they come in and do buys. But the same tools CNN uses are the same tools that you get. And I always joked that what was going to happen when we launched it was we would have, like, plumber in Oklahoma who loves Mike Tyson. This guy's got more money than he knows what to do with, and he's spending on local radio. But he's going to hear the Mike Tyson podcast. And he's going to say to himself, "Well I want to hear my stuff on the Mike Tyson podcast." Then he's going to come, and he's going to buy an ad. Turns out, it was a Mike Tyson podcast, but what I got was someone who signed up. So I start talking to the guy. And he says, "You know, I was out mowing my lawn, and I listened to the Mike Tyson podcast, and that's how I found you. I heard this spot that said, "Anybody can do this." And he said, "I used to work in radio. I've got this new wrestling thing that I'm promoting and I think it would be great to do this. I've got $50. Will you guys work with me?" So it didn't turn out to be a plumber, it had turned out to be a wrestling promoter from Alabaster, Alabama, who had a $50 budget and we ran it for him. We found a spot that fit for him, we worked with him on a price and we got his show promoted on Mike Tyson. He was ecstatic, and he used that then to Tweet about it, he put posts up on Facebook, he had clips. It was a great way for him to associate what he was doing with something that does reach hundreds of thousands of people during a given week time. And that's reach, I think, that a lot of people in the podcast space just haven't been able to tap into. A lot of the agencies that we work with will refer people over to us because they can't touch any campaign that's got like, less than a $20,000 budget. And that eliminates a lot of people.
Benjamin: So tell us a little bit about your career path, and how did you come to be the founder of Ad Knit.
Kris: I'd always been into audio. Podcasting came along, and actually in 2005 when I launched the business, I ended up with MTV as a client two weeks later. So I was a guy in his basement in Chicago suburbs, and all of a sudden I had MTV, and that became NASCAR, and became a lot of other big brands. And I was doing stuff with MasterCard and Home Depot. So a lot of it was trial by fire. I'm out there billing MTV $900 for a project and wondering why I can't get paid, right?
Benjamin: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kris: And they're hitting me up. And they're like, "Man, you should have added, like, two zero's. You probably would have gotten paid within a week." I'm like, "Dang it!"
Benjamin: Send them a second invoice.
Kris: Exactly. I had no idea what going on. We were building custom flash players for these people, and stuff from way back. So we started doing that, and then I really wanted to focus on the space as a whole on the tech side, and I saw a lot of opportunity to do that. And that's where, looking at a hole in the industry to do what we do, as a stack. Nobody does what we do all in one place. And the reason for that was I was looking for efficiency and I think because I come at the business from the podcaster perspective, I'd done it for so long, I'd worked with every content management system, I didn't like them, so I built my own. So I felt like I made a superior content management system. And when it came to the ad side, I was doing a little bit of that, but I knew someone who was smarter and a lot better at writing code. And we partnered up, and that's where our software Knit really came from. In that, I kind of got pushed out of the code role. So it forced me into sales, so I have my hands in sales, I have my hands in content deals. So your typical business development type of stuff, along with, again, marketing and advertising.
Benjamin: Sounds like you haven't had the stereotypical career path. You are an entrepreneur that has been working on this platform if I did the math right, 13 years.
Kris: Close. There's definitely cycles of growth and then cycles of, where the system lays fallow. Probably for the first eight years, there was of continuous development, up until around 2012. And then just, everything laid down. And it was me, writing and doing everything up until that point. And then about middle of 2015, that's when we turned the lights back on and did our whole new set of development to get product to where is is now.
Benjamin: It is, essentially, a self-service tool that virtually anyone can place audio advertisements against well-branded content.
Benjamin: Fill in the blanks there for me.
Kris: Sure. We exist in a space where we have a content management system, where you upload your content, but we do it a little differently. We provide speed. And part of the reason that we do that is we eliminate the producer at that state from and ad op standpoint. What I mean by that is we don't require producers who are uploading their content to place markers or to be in control of an ad-buy. We don't need to communicate with a producer. And the reason we do that is engineers and audio producers, their job is to really make sure the sound quality is great. And they're the last people on the planet I want to have flighting ads. Especially if it's a 10, 20, $30,000 buy during a week. One of the big problems in the podcast space that we saw was make-goods. Somebody goofs up and ad in a week, and it's a $30,000 buy. You got to make that up. So you're going to have to rerun that inventory. But the weird part about podcasts is if the show runs, it's gone. You have one opportunity to fill it, and if there's a mistake, now you got to go back and do it which cuts the rate in half. So if a buyer came in at $30,000 you got to rerun it again. You're essentially running $60,000 worth of ads. The other part of that is the agencies typically ill be upset, the brand is upset. And then what they do is they want something value-added. They want bonus spots. So it's just a system that's kind of inefficient and we wanted to eliminate that as a stage. So that's what we do on our content management system. On the ad side, we work just like the other platforms except we're able to advertise across our entire corpus. So if you wanted to run a network on CNN, you can upload one add instantly in one form. And literally, if you wanted to run right now, if you put it in at this moment, it would run. None of the other platforms do that. So for us, that's a bit of a differentiator. You can start ads in real-time and stop them in real-time, which is, you know, if you find an ad's not working for you, just go and pause it. Stops instantly. It's not going to get delivered to anyone. Now, what we're trying to do is create something where, when users and publishers can interact in a way that has a lot less friction. Like, you don't have to ask anybody's permission, you just put spots in, you run the spots, they go in the spots. No producers are having to worry about, "Oh my God, did I mess up a marker? Did I cause a problem?" So our focus is to allow producers and publishers to do what they do well, which is make shows, and not worry about advertising. And then for advertisers, we just want them to be able to do what their goal is, which is to reach a broad audience, or a narrow audience, depending on what their task at hand is. So if we can find that audience, we want them to be able to reach it in a transparent way.
Benjamin: They buy size on your platform is essentially the lowest possible size, where, if I wanted to advertise, let's say, through a mid-roll or another provider, I have to buy out all of the inventory for an entire show. With your platform, I can create an ad myself and insert it into someone else's show, and I can pick how many impressions I have from that.
Kris: That's one of the things that we love about what we do, because a good example of this is, right now CNN has a show called Patty Has a Gun. It's an original podcast, but it's a companion to a TV show. And CNN is promoting it heavily. So it has its own page at CNN.com, the web player that we provide for them winds up on their homepage. And I you can imagine, CNN is the most trafficked news site globally. There are millions of ad impressions every day when that player shows up on the homepage. Which is great. Our buyers, even if people are coming in and buying half a million impressions, and saying, "All right. Cool. We're going to run this for a month." Those were gone in about six hours. So, just as you're saying, like that difference of being able to say, "I want a thousand of this, or 3000 of that, that's what my budget fits." It's impossible to do other places.
Benjamin: What is the incentive for someone on the supply side to use your platform, as opposed to one where they're selling all of their inventory in one fell swoop.
Kris: When you're doing a host read and it's baked in, and you're putting that into your show, the hidden thing about podcasting and podcast publishing is, on the back end. Somebody's paying for all the bandwidth. Somebody's paying for a platform license. And that typically is the publisher. And that puts the publishers in a weird spot. They don't get to focus on content. They're a little focused on it, but after a couple months, if the numbers aren't where they want them to be, which can happen, those bills get pretty hefty. Especially if show gets popular and it's not sold. And we're talking in the tens of thousands of dollars a month, if a show gets really popular. So what we typically do, is when we talk to a network is, we talk to them about where they're shows are, how they're doing it, and then what it looks like when they're doing host read ads. Getting it sold out is great, but podcast ads typically being sold on a CPM basis. If you're getting a $30 CPM, the way that buys end up being structured, that ad needs to live in the podcast, and this is pretty much standard for most ad shops, it needs to live in that content for at least 60 days. So the ad's going to run for 30 and it needs to stay in that episode for another 30 days. I can tell you that after 60 days, nobody is going to go back and cut the ads out of that podcast. There are very few places that were ever doing that. I think there may be some now that are doing that. So a lot of podcasts have been pitched as this long tail thing. But if you look at that buy, and you say, "Okay. Look, if they did take the ad out after 60 days and they were able to put some new ad into that show, how are they going to do it? Going to do it by hand, that's crazy. You take sometimes entire library of 200 episodes and you're going to go cut things in and out. It's not effect. So the difference between a human doing it and a robot doing it are really no difference, except the robot will do it, basically, for free. But if a show becomes very popular the podcaster, or the seller, is on the hook to project how many downloads an episode is going to be. So you might say, "Our episodes get 50,000 downloads a week. Let's say you buy a podcast ad through Knit, and you promote it in CNN, and it drives traffic to your show, whether it's 10, 20, let's say there's a huge difference, and it gets picked up by TMZ and it's blowing up. And that episode goes out, and you do half a million downloads that week. The advertiser only paid you for 50,000. They didn't pay you the extra 450,000. So for them, it's a great value. For you, you just got paid a $10 CPM and now all of a sudden you're 10X on your downloads, and that means your costs just went up 10X. And chances are if a show episode was that popular, it would still be popular over time. And you end up having to pay out of pocket for all of those things and the shows that you're creating, your library of content, you're not able to advertise and do it again. And that's what happens with most of the other networks and the places where you buy content from. As a publisher, you're not able to advertise in to. So for us and entire archive all the time. So if you came into, we'll just use it for easiness sake, Anderson Cooper, so if you come in to buy AC 360, you're not only going to get future episodes during our flight time, but if somebody comes in and listens to episode from four months ago, your ad will go in, because this is the Anderson Cooper audience. So you're getting an opportunity to reach the same demographic, buyer, etc. that you're looking for who may be interested in your product or brand.
Benjamin: Essentially, you take out the risk for the supply side because they're able to monetize every impression and if they're going to sell their advertising, there's no that they're going to be able to predict the impression volume prior to selling the ad unit when they're doing it in one fell swoop.
Benjamin: Now tell me for the demand side, the buyers of your podcast advertising. Why is this platform different than, let's say, the mid roles or other places where you can go and direct to a podcast producer. Tell me what are the benefits for the platform?
Kris: Again, I think just to touch base on where you were at already. Oh you don't have to buy all the impressions We're not making predictions, which is another part for us. We do predict how shows will perform over a 30 day span. The plus of that is, the industry operates like most other industries on insertion orders, right. You get a contract that says, "We're want to buy X. This is what we budgeted, and this is what you're going to charge us." The way that we build our platform, we're only charging buys for what we deliver for them. So if you come in and you want to buy 10,000 impressions in a show, and we only deliver 8,000, we're not going to charge you the extra 2,000, or come back to you and say, "Hey. We got 2,000 impressions left. Let us throw these on another show." That's what happens on every other platform that's currently out there in the podcast space. There's nobody else that's doing that. Helping to mitigate risk for a podcast buyer so you can come in and start testing pricing. Some shows you may want to pay a higher rate for. Other shows, you might want to pay a lower rate for. Some shows, maybe buying a pre-roll ad works for you better than a mid-roll ad. Sometimes a post-roll as opposed to a mid-roll. Which is great, and I can say, I'm not going to name names, but there are other podcast publishers and companies that are household names, in our industry that do buy ads from us through our marketplace to promote their own podcasts that are similar.
Benjamin: So for people that are interested in testing podcast advertising, the concern that I've run into is, "How do we know what shows to advertise on, and how do we measure the ROI of audio ads?"
Kris: I think when it comes to choosing shows, what we've seen that works best are trying to align with a show that is similar in content, but it may be similar in audience. So in that case, what I would say, it's like the Warren Buffet investing type of principle. If you use the product, buy the stock. If you're listening to something and you identify with it in some sort of way, or have in the past, that fits. Now that's a really esoteric touchy-feely thing. The other way to do it, obviously, is to create a dialogue, and we do this quite often, with buyers when they come in. To actually start walking them through. Because I don't think sometimes folks who are ready to buy may not have thought about everything, like, what age range are you trying to reach? Is there a HHI that you're looking for? Is there any other information about your audience that you want? Do they have a family? We do surveys and we have a lot of this data available, and we tend to share that.
Benjamin: Two things. One, you mentioned HHI ...
Kris: Oh. Household income.
Benjamin: And the second things is that, if you want to figure out what shows work for you, here is no minimum budget to test the show so you can actually learn that without having a lot of risk. You're not buying the Bill Simmons podcast for $25,000 a show, or, I have no idea what the rates for that would be. You're putting $200 into Anderson Cooper, an three other shows that you think are similar. So how do marketers measure ROI through audio ads?
Kris: We've had a couple different ways that people measure. He typical way that folks measure comes in two ways. There's the direct response campaign, which are the people who are coming in and running ads, and this is most ads by the way. Where they have conversion that they need. There's a KPI that they need to meet, whether it's just somebody going to the page and reading it, signing up. Is it buying the product. Whatever it is, they've got a KPI for that. And then there are the awareness campaign sides. On the awareness side, maybe it's people went to their website/ That would be an audio app that has, just a domain in it. Like go visit "x.com," right? And people go visit the website and they go, "Traffic went up. This was great is a good a buy for us. Maybe six months from now they see more people buying the product. And they say, all right. That was because we ran this ad. But most of it relies on that direct response, KPI side of the house. There's a couple ways that folks do it. One is to have a code. So they may have, if they're on one of the NBA podcasts they might have a code that's domain/NBA. There's a landing page for them to go to where they can track people who are coming into that landing page. And then there's the other side, which is, or give you a 30% discount if you use the code NBA. So use the code NBA at checkout. They'll view that as, the way that they're going to figure out what their return on that investment is. We offer two things on that side, which is a landing page pixel. And then we offer a conversion pixel. So we actual with work with advertisers to go through their funnel. Because what we want to do is we want to make sure that the audio ad itself is performing the way it should. That's another thing that is a problem in the industry, really. It's like a black box, almost on the ROI side. You just rely on like, a word of mouth kind of thing. Like well it didn't work, or it did work, so now we're going to spend more.
Benjamin: So do you have a sense of how advertisers should reconcile that problem?
Kris: I honestly think that we end up in a space where it's really look at to tell. If you're bowling branch, and you're running spots. Those spots are running on satellite radio. They're running on hundreds of podcasts. They're on terrestrial radio. So I think you end up in a place, where, people if they do remember to go to bowling branch, they're going to use whatever was the last code that they heard, or they're going to use a code that they remember. Maybe it's the shortest code.
Benjamin: They've had the most impressions for, most likely.
Kris: Yeah. I feel like it's cheating 99% of the time when we have a code that's CNN, or NBA. Those are codes that people are going to remember. I don't care if they heard it on satellite radio, and they're like use Code Sirius XM92. CNN's the code that they're going to use. So, for the most part, what we try to do when we have advertisers coming in who are focused on that and focused on the optimization, what we want to work through is, how many impressions we're going to deliver for them, across what shows. And you really can only kind of tell on the back end. But again if you're eliminating some of the risk, and you're allowing people to come in and then optimize, to create a higher conversion at their site, for us that's the goal, and we just try to do that by making all of the statistics that we have about ad impressions, your own campaigns, transparent.
Benjamin: And I think of it as, sort of similar to television advertising, where you're looking at driving awareness and you have to measure that as a rise in tides over time, and how aware of your product or services are people is not something that can be measured immediately. If you're measuring this channel as a direct response channel, you're going to need to determine what your own multiplier is because there's going to be a subset of people that interact with your product that just aren't going to remember your code, or aren't going to go to the right place, but they're actually being driven because of awareness from the audio ad.
Kris: Yeah. Hundred percent.
Benjamin: So, we've talked a lot about channel attribution. I want to talk to you a little bit about your goals for the company. Who are the people that you're trying to reach? What are the goals you're trying to achieve?
Kris: We've hit a lot of our milestones early. I think was something that really helped kind of propel us along. We started out working with one client, and that client was CNN. We were able to turn that into a much larger deal. Finding ourselves in that position has been really valuable. What we'd like to continue doing, moving forward, is to expand our content offering. So we know what's out there as far as it going in podcast spaces for marketplaces for people to buy the way that we're allowing people to buy, for anyone to come in and buy on credit card. There's nobody else with that type of platform. So we'd like to grow our marketplace, to a place where we have a lot of offerings. Instead of offering shows, which we do mostly, we're able to officer verticals. So if you wanted a sports vertical right now, I'm limited to Bleacher Report, NBA and some stuff from Workhouse Connect. We'd like to be able to open that up. For us the goal is allowing people to sell their own content, their own podcasts, using the same tools that we use.
Benjamin: What you're trying to achieve right now is focusing on building the supply side, finding podcasters to leverage your platform to sell all of their inventory. If that's the case, what is the threshold for someone to be able to have a podcast that's big enough to be on the platform.
Kris: That varies, depending on which day of the week my partner and I are talking about it.
Kris: Yeah, exactly. Let's go back to Tuesday. Tuesday was a "It Doesn't Matter" day, let's say. So this is a problem that has not been cracked in the podcasting space at all. How to monetize all these podcasts at scale, like Google did with Adsense. It does get more difficult. Our system will allow us to insert ads into all of those podcasts. So let's say we had 150 people or 1,000 people sign up and put their shows in. At that point, do we care if they keep producing podcasts? No. Are they going to be the people who come in and produce seven shows and never do another one again. A lot of them will be. But if somebody's downloading it and you want a show that's based on a topic because we're doing semantic analysis and figuring out what type of content is in that show, we can target against it. That's one of the places where we say yes, this is what we want to do. Then there's the other side of the hose, where, when it comes to selling a podcast, what's sellable. And typically, where we end up, and other platforms use this as a benchmark as well, about 20,000 downloads a week. Now other platforms might tell you 20,000 per episode; I would tell you 20,000 for your entire library. So if you've got 40 shows, or 50 shows and some of them are evergreen and people are downloading them, that's the kind of range where you want to be where you're making more than beer money on your podcast. And those are the types of folks that we talk to, but again, and this is where it gets all super weird, I was there in the beginning when podcasting started, so I really look at folks that are interested in podcasting, and when they say we want to be on the platform, or they fill out our publisher link, I talk to them. Because there is so much of that, almost, pioneer spirit in what we're doing on the bootstrap side, I look at folks that are producing shows and just say, "All right. Cool. Come on. Be a part of the platform." For us growing it. It's going to have to be somewhere between all of that. It's going to be, "What vertical do we want to grow first. Is it sports, is it comedy, is it true crime?" You would pick a vertical and then work on getting shows within that vertical. So that's a kind way of saying, "Anybody can come talk to me. Or fill out the form. Knot.audio for a plug.
Benjamin: In thinking about starting as a podcaster, the tipping point that I've learned seems to be when you get to 10,000 downloads, people that are listening to your podcast in a month. And that seems to be the tipping point between, "I have a hobby." And "This is now a monetizable asset."
Kris: We have folks that are working on Networks within their own cities. So they have small podcasts and they're trying to grow them. And these are literally, like, book focused. Like, "We're podcaster authors in Atlanta." "That's awesome. Come be part of our platform. How many shows do you have?" "Well we have four shows." I'm not going to give away numbers, but if they're passionate about it, and they want to grow it and they want to work at it, those are the types of folks that we're interested in working with. Or obviously if it's somebody who's got a larger network, it's much easier to onboard and bring in advertisers right away.
Benjamin: You're an entrepreneur. You started this company a while ago. You've bootstrapped and iterated on it for years. Tell me a little bit about some of the things that you've learned along the ways that you'd like to pass on to people that are starting as marketers.
Kris: It sounds completely pithy, but it's, believe in yourself. That is the one core that I would take away, and I would say that, I think the biggest disappointment in my career and my development on the entrepreneurial side was not believing in myself early enough. It was looking at bills, thinking, "Oh my God, I need health care. I have this to take care of, or that." Not fully taking a leap. Just kind of dipping my toe in the waters. And I think for young marketers, not taking for granted all of those skills and things that you have learned, just by interacting with your friends to be a normal human being or being perceived as normal, are of high value to brands. And when you can start to think about them analytically to help them move forward whatever initiative it is, that's an unbelievable asset. And I think that that really fits into the, you have to believe in yourself. For me, with this business, and going bootstrap, it really became, "I have to believe in myself. My back is against the wall, and we're not going to take money from anybody, so how do we do this?" I think believing in yourself is the key.
Benjamin: Tell us how people can find your service, get in touch with you.
Kris: They can visit Knit.audio. That's were you can see what we've got to offer, the split between publishing and the split between the advertising side. Folks can sign up over there. I'm available almost all the time.
Benjamin: It's true.
Kris: I respond to a lot of things, so I can be reached via email. Pretty simple. K@knit.audio. Feel free to send me an email and whether we work together or we don't, if you've got podcast related questions, we're always more than happy to answer those.
Benjamin: Kris, I can't thank you enough. I appreciate the time, and I'm sure that everybody that listened to this podcast, they will have learned something about podcasting, so thank you very much.
Kris: Thanks Ben.
Benjamin: Okay. That wraps up this episode of the MarTech podcast. Thanks to Kris from Knit Audio for joining us today and the Searchmetrics team for sponsoring this podcast If you're looking to grow your online presence, go to Searchmetrics.com to request your free tour of their platform. If you'd like to read the transcript of this podcast, we've published it on Benjshap.com. We'd also love for you to leave a review of the podcast in the iTunes store. And if you're a subscriber of the MarTech podcast, I just want to say, thank you. We want you to feel like a member of our community. So if you have any questions, comments or you would like to be a guest on the show, feel free to reach out to me directly at firstname.lastname@example.org or on Twitter, my handle is @benjshap. If you haven't already subscribe to the MarTech podcast yet, and you want a weekly stream of marketing and technology knowledge in your podcast feed, hit the subscribe button and you'll hear about our upcoming episodes that cover topics like paid social media advertising, influence or marketing, and the difference between traditional marketing and growth hacking. Okay. That's it for today. But until next time, my advice is to just focus on keeping your customers happy.